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Just in time for the holidays. Inclusive displays of different faiths. The law of unintended consequences in action!

08 Dec

GustaveDoreParadiseLostSatanProfile                              http://aattp.org/oklahoma-satanists-want-to-donate-monument-next-to-state-ten-commandments-display/

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15 responses to “Just in time for the holidays. Inclusive displays of different faiths. The law of unintended consequences in action!

  1. kmgtwo

    December 8, 2013 at 10:39 am

    Too funny.

     
  2. rustybrown2012

    December 8, 2013 at 1:28 pm

    Perfect! Personally, I think there should be no religious displays on public property but since Christian bullies insist on it this is a good taste of their own medicine for them.

     
    • mitchethekid

      December 8, 2013 at 1:50 pm

      Right. They demand to proselytize and when they run up against church and state separation they whine about how they are being persecuted and how their first amendment rights are being infringed upon. Wouldn’t it be great if the Satanists were joined by Wiccans, Muslims and Flying Spaghetti Monsters.

       
      • kmgtwo

        December 8, 2013 at 2:23 pm

        They are called Pastafarians. The Flying Spaghetti Moster is the deity.

         
      • mitchethekid

        December 8, 2013 at 3:42 pm

        Pastafarians. That’s great. I wish I was that creative. Didn’t this belief system come into being several yrs ago because of the science standards in Kansas?

         
      • kmgtwo

        December 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm

        Yep. Kansas was trying to put Creationism into schools via the Intelligent Design canard. Pastafarianism sprung up out of that.

        http://www.venganza.org/

         
      • mitchethekid

        December 8, 2013 at 4:21 pm

        That’s what I thought. I remember that incident very well. I was then and still am a Kansas resident. When the book What’s the Matter With Kansas was written, it was spot on and dead right. (No pun intended.)
        I still have a file folder full of articles from that period of time. I was very vocal and a member of Kansas Citizens for Science and some other anti ID groups. The school board members who tired to get religion taught as science was a particularly foul, repressed, uptight and easily offended group. Then as now I cannot tolerate the deviousness of people who are compelled to claim something that it’s not. The school board at that time consisted of Dana Carvey Church Ladies who desperately needed to get laid. But the way they looked would make a blind dog jump off of a meat wagon.

         
  3. bardolf2

    December 8, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    The Ten Commandments being posted on public property isn’t bullying and as evidence the Satanists will likely get their way. As for brain-washing in the schools nothing is dumber than pushing creationism in science class.

    I’m all for taking superstition out of the public sphere because for some reason ‘free-market’-economics, ‘repressed memory’-psychology, ‘there are millions of alien civilizations if we just look hard enough”-astronomy and of course ‘overpopulation is going to end the world’-sociology classes are still taught in most every public high school in the country.

     
    • rustybrown2012

      December 8, 2013 at 11:15 pm

      “The Ten Commandments being posted on public property isn’t bullying and as evidence the Satanists will likely get their way.”

      You seem to have a misplaced confidence that the Satanist church is winning their place in the public square – care to cite a public victory they’ve had? By the way, do you follow the ten commandments? Seems like a lot of archaic bullshit to me, much like satanism.

       
      • bardolf2

        December 9, 2013 at 1:46 am

        I have confidence in the court system, not in the Satanists. I don’t follow the Satanists on Yahoo sports so I don’t know how they are doing in the games they’ve competed in lately. That said, they did manage this “With a Pink Mass Involving Gay Kissing, Satanists Turn Fred Phelps’ Dead Mother Into a Lesbian”. That doesn’t sound like a losing team, though they probably won’t be bowl eligible anytime soon.

        Again, IMO posting the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse hardly seems to be bullying. For me the real bullying that goes on at the Oklahoma courthouse consists in throwing poor people in jail in the war on drugs.

        As for following the Ten Commandments, I try and follow them. Don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t cheat on your husband/wife, don’t lie about your neighbor instead protect her/his name probably aren’t offensive. Honoring God, remembering Him, keeping His name Holy, was silliness to the Epicureans (300 BC) and other ancient schools of thought who held an omnipotent god to be at most a distant god. So by enlightenment standards it was archaic even before Christianity came into existence.

        Honoring your parents and not being greedy for your neighbors stuff is probably not yet settled science in some circles.

        Again, the Christian superstitions as you call them are mildly annoying at worst for the vast majority of skeptical Americans. They are not to be compared to Economic superstitions which have led to the belief that a person’s worth is determined by what the market will pay him to work. That some magic hand mysteriously wants bankers to be the center of every exchange of services. That exponential growth is tenable. Psychology superstitions have led to a climate whereby people ingesting certain substances into their own bodies are labelled as diseased (sinners) and worthy of being thrown in jail for their own good. They have led to the notion that it’s unnatural for a 10 year old boy to not want to be confined for 9 hours a day. That if he behaves according to his instincts the state is allowed to chemically alter his brain chemistry based on some kind hearted counselor following the official doctrine.

         
      • mitchethekid

        December 9, 2013 at 8:10 am

        I like your sense of humor.
        I posted that link because I found humor in the irony, not that I am a Satanist. (Although I once owned a copy of Anton LaVeys book.) I get a sick pleasure when religious zealots get their comeuppance. No religion is any better than any other and no religion has bragging rights to absolute truth. They all are based on superstitions and magical thinking. Anyway, here’s another comedic article. BTW, I like your Carlinesque take on the commandments.
        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/god-created-gravity-why-t_b_4387942.html

         
      • rustybrown2012

        December 9, 2013 at 9:15 am

        Dolf,
        “the Christian superstitions as you call them are mildly annoying at worst for the vast majority of skeptical Americans. They are not to be compared to Economic superstitions which have led to the belief that a person’s worth is determined by what the market will pay him to work (etc., etc.)…”

        …which is why I would never compare them. Wow, you really enjoy non sequiturs, don’t you? Here’s another one for you – “rape hardly seems like violence. For me the real violence is genocide.”

        Tell me, since we agree that the majority of the commandments are silly, why post them in front of a courthouse? Do you really need a reminder to not steal, murder, and fuck your neighbor’s wife? Or do you just enjoy a government sponsored affirmation of your faith?

         
      • bardolf2

        December 9, 2013 at 5:14 pm

        ” rape hardly seems like violence. For me the real violence is genocide.” – Rusty

        Your analogy is completely backward since rape is an actual problem in the United States and genocide isn’t. Taking years off the lives of poor people via the war on drugs is an actual problem, posting the Ten Commandments in public isn’t. To be balanced whenever someone who subscribes to the Ten Commandments says they are persecuted at Christmas time (because people say happy holidays) I tell them NO they are not. The amount of outrage one can muster is limited and should be used for actual problems.

        I personally don’t find the commandments about Honoring God to be silly. I was probably unclear, but my point was that it isn’t a modern notion to think they are silly. Nevertheless I don’t want the government involved in supporting my faith in any respect. I find Christians who want the government to sanction their marriage and condemn gay marriage to be troubled. Those that want the Ten Commandments posted in public to be hurting their own cause. I find historical Christianity to be in opposition to authoritarianism not in support of it.

        My question for the self-limiting skeptics who correctly want unscientific beliefs out of the public square is why I don’t see such strong opinions regarding economics, psychology, etc. 35 years ago in economics classes in public schools they taught me the Phillips curve about an inverse relationship between unemployment and inflation. Any collection of real data shows no such thing. It is still taught in public schools and even wikipedia describes it as “too simplistic” instead of WRONG. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve

        It will still be taught in 20 years even though it is wrong. It’s taught because it tells the lower classes that they can’t all be employed and have goods at reasonable prices. It’s patent BS but the way to get rid of it is to say all economics is phony. But then many other disciplines would follow suit and ‘liberals’ aren’t too keen on getting rid of those nonsensical areas.

         
      • rustybrown2012

        December 10, 2013 at 2:50 pm

        Dolf,
        My analogy is not backward, you’ve just missed the point. My point was that a problem is not diminished or dismissed just because you invoke a more serious problem, as you seemed to imply when you said:

        “posting the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse hardly seems to be bullying. For me the real bullying that goes on at the Oklahoma courthouse consists in throwing poor people in jail in the war on drugs.”

        That statement is nonsensical as an argument, which is what I was trying to point out with my analogy “rape hardly seems like violence. For me the real violence is genocide.” …we agree both things are bad, so what’s your point? And whether or not these are problems in the U.S. is completely beside the point. You make this same weird fallacy in your last post where you criticize skeptics who want religion out of the public square for allegedly not being as vocal about economics and psychology. Huh? What in blue blazes does one thing have to do with the other? Try sticking to the subject at hand.

        Other curiosities in your post:

        “my point was that it isn’t a modern notion to think (commandments honoring god) are silly.”

        …so? who said it was?

        “I find historical Christianity to be in opposition to authoritarianism not in support of it.”

        You’ve just got to be fuckin’ kidding me. The Catholic church has been one of the most authoritarian enterprises the world has ever known for centuries.

         
  4. meursault1942

    December 9, 2013 at 12:08 pm

    Another great discussion piece: This piece by David Simon (actually the text of a speech he gave) absolutely nails it. He says everything I’ve been trying to say about the economy and what has become of the U.S. since the triumph of trickle-down theory over actual economic success. He has the correct diagnosis (the most successful economies–such as the post-WWII U.S. economy–happen because no one theory or side gets to win all the time and because every single person has a real stake in it, not just a small group at the top increasingly squashing those below them, which is what we’ve had since trickle-down took over), and he explains it perfectly. It’s hard to select a single quote because I end up wanting to quote the whole thing, so forgive the lengthiness of this quote, but I think it’s all important to understanding his central point:

    Labour doesn’t get to win all its arguments, capital doesn’t get to. But it’s in the tension, it’s in the actual fight between the two, that capitalism actually becomes functional, that it becomes something that every stratum in society has a stake in, that they all share.

    The unions actually mattered. The unions were part of the equation. It didn’t matter that they won all the time, it didn’t matter that they lost all the time, it just mattered that they had to win some of the time and they had to put up a fight and they had to argue for the demand and the equation and for the idea that workers were not worth less, they were worth more.

    Ultimately we abandoned that and believed in the idea of trickle-down and the idea of the market economy and the market knows best, to the point where now libertarianism in my country is actually being taken seriously as an intelligent mode of political thought. It’s astonishing to me. But it is. People are saying I don’t need anything but my own ability to earn a profit. I’m not connected to society. I don’t care how the road got built, I don’t care where the firefighter comes from, I don’t care who educates the kids other than my kids. I am me. It’s the triumph of the self. I am me, hear me roar.

    That we’ve gotten to this point is astonishing to me because basically in winning its victory, in seeing that Wall come down and seeing the former Stalinist state’s journey towards our way of thinking in terms of markets or being vulnerable, you would have thought that we would have learned what works. Instead we’ve descended into what can only be described as greed. This is just greed. This is an inability to see that we’re all connected, that the idea of two Americas is implausible, or two Australias, or two Spains or two Frances.

    Societies are exactly what they sound like. If everybody is invested and if everyone just believes that they have “some”, it doesn’t mean that everybody’s going to get the same amount. It doesn’t mean there aren’t going to be people who are the venture capitalists who stand to make the most. It’s not each according to their needs or anything that is purely Marxist, but it is that everybody feels as if, if the society succeeds, I succeed, I don’t get left behind. And there isn’t a society in the west now, right now, that is able to sustain that for all of its population.

    And so in my country you’re seeing a horror show. You’re seeing a retrenchment in terms of family income, you’re seeing the abandonment of basic services, such as public education, functional public education. You’re seeing the underclass hunted through an alleged war on dangerous drugs that is in fact merely a war on the poor and has turned us into the most incarcerative state in the history of mankind, in terms of the sheer numbers of people we’ve put in American prisons and the percentage of Americans we put into prisons. No other country on the face of the Earth jails people at the number and rate that we are.

    We have become something other than what we claim for the American dream and all because of our inability to basically share, to even contemplate a socialist impulse.

     
 
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